‘You Alright, Mate?’: Ollie Judge on Cannibalism, Cults, and the fiction that Warped Cowards
Words: Hannah Strong
Photography: Andrew D. Rankin
2680 words, 00:08:56
Ollie Judge would like to assure everyone that he’s perfectly fine. The vocalist, drummer and lyricist of the art rock quintet Squid might have just dropped an album about cannibalism, cults and the cheery possibility of an imminent nuclear holocaust, but the pervasive darkness of Cowards does not extend to the man sitting cheerily in one of the two screening rooms at Bristol’s only video shop, 20th Century Flicks. It’s gloomy outside – the sort of January day where the sun never seems to bother rising at all – but perhaps that’s a nice bit of pathetic fallacy as the release of Squid’s third album looms on the horizon.
A kinetic, disquieting and intensively vivid collection of nine tracks, Cowards draws inspiration from real world horrors and imagined ones to creative something uniquely unsettling, but as 20th Century Flicks’ proprietor Dave hands us both a cup of tea and sticks Ex Machina on the projector, we’re a far cry away from the underworld – even if Ollie admits an affinity for the dark and morbid.
This will come as no surprise to longterm fans of the band, who might recall previous songs were inspired by the likes of Theo Anthony’s Rat Film, Bi Gan’s Long Day’s Journey Into Night and David Lynch’s Twin Peaks (Ollie’s cat is also named Special Agent Dale Cooper, after the series’ protagonist). But Cowards is their most daring and story-rich work to date – and there’s a world of artistic inspiration behind those wildly atmospheric tracks.
HS: I thought it'd be nice since we're in a physical media space to start by asking for some of your favourite local cinemas and bookshops.
OJ: I mean I'm pretty basic when it comes to books, I like Waterstones. I've got the loyalty card and I've just gone too far down the rabbit hole. But there's a good one called Gloucester Road Books here in Bristol too. I basically just gravitate towards any bookshop that's got a cult fiction section or just like a really good sci-fi section. In terms of cinemas, we're quite spoiled for choice in Bristol. I think what we lack in art galleries we make up for quite dramatically with cinemas. So there's The Cube, which is like an amazing volunteer-run and owned microcinema and they just show films that I've never even heard of. Every time I see a film there I enjoy at least a few things about it. Then obviously there’s The Watershed which is great. That's your classic art house cinema. They’ve got great nachos too.
Nachos in a cinema? That’s controversial.
No, no! You’ve got to eat them in the bar beforehand.
In terms of being inspired by books and cinema, how much do you and the rest of the band share? Are you constantly giving each other recommendations?
Yeah absolutely, more so than music because I feel like when we're writing music there's a feeling that if we talk about other people's music together too much that will change the course of the music we're writing and we might start becoming pastiche of some other band. But movies and books feel a bit more safe to talk about together. It's a bit more cerebral I guess so it can change the mood of whatever music you're writing but don't make it sound so much like something else that's already been done. Yeah. And it's just I think it's more fun to talk about movies and books with the rest of the band.
I find that’s really common with any sort of artist – you don’t want to get too bogged down in your own medium, just in case it has too much of an impact on what you’re creating.
Yeah, absolutely. You're so conscious of it, worried it’s still there at the back of your brain. I prefer to be influenced by moods rather than fully formed things.
When you start thinking about a new album, which way around does it work – are you consciously looking for inspiration, or does the inspiration arrive in turn spark the music?
It’s interesting, I think the influence from books and film usually only really feeds into the lyrics which I mainly do in the band. We're pretty democratic as composers and we all have a say in that. But I find it quite funny that as soon as it comes to the lyrics it's all to do with me. It's like “I've been reading this, I've been watching this, here’s what the whole album’s about.” No one's really asked for that!
Do the rest of the band ever read your lyrics and ask you if you’re alright?
[laughs] Yeah, I mean Laurie bless him, he's pretty squeamish, he doesn't really like the sight of blood. And there I am like, “Right so I’m writing about cannibals, I'm writing about people hitting themselves in the face with dumbbells and knocking their teeth out.”
The Manson Murders…
Yep, the Manson Murders. I think more so than any album this one's been the one that people have been like, “You alright? Is everything okay at home?”
Listen:
Squid ˇ
‘Cro-Magnon Man’
I know Yorgos Lanthimos’s Dogtooth inspired the titular track, ‘Cowards’. What appeals to you about his films?
I think it’s his sense of humour. You know, some people will find his work really funny and other people just kind of see it for what it looks like, which is absolutely bleak and petrifying. It’s not provocative for the sake of it, but he likes to push peoples’ buttons a little bit.
Put a cat among the pigeons, yeah. There's an element of giving the viewer something to decode. It must be like that with the band right? You want to give your listeners something that they can kind of take away and puzzle over.
Yeah definitely. I think we've always been quite interested how we can sort of skirt around the subject I guess. That's what all of my favourite filmmakers do I think. I've always wanted to do that thing that David Lynch did in interviews when people say “What's that about?” and you just say, “No.”
Oh yeah, the clip where he says “Believe it or not, Eraserhead is my most spiritual film” and then refuses to elaborate – I love that. Maintain a sense of mystery.
I've noticed that in the past few years, it feels like fans want to know everything about an artist and their work. I’m talking about big pop stars, like Chappell Roan, but you notice it everywhere. It’s kind of sweet in some way that they want to piece together all the clues and everything, but at the same time, it’s a bit overwhelming. Everyone has this enormous appetite for the true meaning of everything.
I think as human beings there should be some mystery right? I don't want to know everything about my friends or my family, so I wouldn’t want to know about it like an artist I admire. But I'm sure your fans are much more chill than Chappell Roan’s.
Oh yeah, I’m thankful! Everyone's just so chill. They're very respectful. Not too many Reddit threads about us which is nice.
I’m sure you must have been told before to never read the comments.
I know! But you get curious…and sometimes it’s nice to get feedback, y’know? There’s a personal aspect to it.
And I think with music, you're sort of opening your chest up and saying “Here's a part of me. Please don't destroy it.” You mentioned David Lynch, who I know has been a huge inspiration for you and the band, as as weird and terrifying and strange as his work is, there was always such a love and tenderness to it too.
Yeah, I'm a massive David Lynch fan and I was reading a bunch of interviews with Mark Frost recently, and he did this one interview where he said, David’s got this child-like sense of strange wonder about the world. There's almost an overwhelming positivity in a lot of his work coupled with some very dark stuff. Like his obsession with The Wizard of Oz – it’s so pure.
Absolutely, and think going back to what you said about this growing desire to know everything about artists, I think you’ve got to maintain some mystery.
Definitely.
You said it’s tricky thinking about other musicians, because you don’t want to be influenced too much, but in terms of storytelling in music and creating very like visceral lyrics, are there any artists who really stand out for you?
For this album in particular I was listening to a lot of Scott Walker, because I loved his post-90s era where he went a bit mad musically. His lyrics are so visceral and gross and almost like body horror in some points. There's like there's one track that he just sampled loads of people farting [Corps De Blah] and it's an amazing song but it's just like toilet humor – but he's one of the best avant-garde musicians ever! So I took a lot of influence from that lyrically, trying to create things that are a little bit gross, but I didn't sample any toilet stuff. I found a middle ground.
I love music like that, which feels completely distinct from anything you’ve ever heard. I remember the first time I heard Godspeed You, Black Emperor! it was like I was hearing music from another dimension.
It's funny you should say that. They were like one of our first ever touchstones as a band – because their lyrics are so cinematic. They used Dead Flag Blues in 28 Days Later didn't they?
Yeah! That's how I encountered it for the first time.
So when we started out we thought “Let’s be like Godspeed. Let's not show our faces in press photos and let's go to like an old abandoned railway line” and stuff and then it kind of veered into pastiche and our music was absolutely shit.
We all start off like that. When I was first starting to write, I wanted to be like Chuck Palahniuk or Brett Easton Ellis. But there’s a reason those guys are those guys. Speaking of books, I know that Agustina Bazterrica’s Tender Is The Flesh inspired the track ‘Crispy Skin’. Did you encounter the book before you started working on the album?
I think I was reading it around the same time. It's a really interesting book and it kind of goes back to what we were saying about Yorgos Lanthimos, and finding things funny that shouldn't be funny, like Blue Jam by Chris Morris too. Things that are so dark that it's funny. The ending to Tender Is The Flesh I just found hilarious. You spend the whole book watching the central character forming this relationship with this person who's supposed to be farmed for human meat. And then, he just bonks her on the head and the book ends. I'm really interested in those things that are on the surface just bleaker than bleak, but there are certain things about it that are actually quite funny.
Well that goes back to Yorgos Lanthimos – I remember the final shot of The Lobster is Colin Farrell about to gouge his own eyes out for love. And The Killing of a Sacred Deer has a really bleak ending too.
Oh yeah I loved that film. I took my parents to see it and I think they were quite worried about me. I watched it with my partner and then I loved it so much I went again, and they were like “You've seen this twice in a week? Are you okay?”
What are you reading at the moment?
I’m reading All Fours by Miranda July. I’m halfway through it and I’m really enjoying it. I didn’t know it was about menopause when I picked it up, but you know what, it’s good to get a range of perspectives. It's definitely not as grizzly as what I'm used to reading.
I know you’ve been crazy busy prepping for the album launch, but have you had a chance to get to the cinema recently?
Not really you know, but I did see Nosferatu. I enjoyed how it was quite camp, I quite liked it. Liked Nosferatu’s handlebar moustache. The grossest bit of it for me was that usually in vampire movies, the vampires bite someone’s neck and take quite delicate little sips, but in this, he’s properly going for it. It was very visceral.
Are you a Robert Eggers fan in general?
Yeah, I tapped out a bit with The Northman, it all felt a bit too macho for me, but I really liked Björk’s cameo. But I love The Lighthouse.
The Lighthouse feels like a Squid-coded movie.
Yeah, that's kind of what our writing sessions are like. Five blokes going mad.
Cooking lobster for each other, gaslighting each other…now, I'm sorry to ask this because I feel like it's a really annoying question for a musician, but how does your writing process work? Do you sit down and think “Okay, today I'm going to work on lyrics” or is there something that has been more kind of organic for you?
The music's always us getting together and just chucking ideas at a wall until they kind of make some kind of sense together. Lyrics are kind of similar to that, but I have to have set routines or set parameters. Like “I'm going to go to this coffee shop and do this today”. But often it's just the most stressful process ever trying to write lyrics. Just really banging my head against the wall trying to eke some words out.
I suppose it’s like poetry with an extra step right? You write it down then have to take it to the band and work out some music.
Yeah, I think I'm very lucky in that the rest of the guys can never really hear what I'm singing because wherever we're writing music it's not very good sound quality. As long as they can get some semblance of melody then I think they're okay with it. They're all very supportive – I go away and come back with a big theme or like a big subject and they just kind of say yes.
I’m imagining you walking in and saying “Okay, so this one’s about cannibalism.”
“Great Ollie, let's get started!” I think they're always quite excited to see what weird shit I’ve been reading about or watching. I think the last thing that they'd ever expect is for me to come through the door and be like “This is a love song.”
Maybe something for the next album? Though actually, I read a quote that said Cowards is the album that you guys have always wanted to make, and I thought that was an interesting thing to read about a third album. Is there a sense of hitting your stride by this point, where you think “We know how we do things, and we can afford to kind of change things up or do things differently from how we would have done in the past”?
Yeah, I think so. We basically finished writing and recording it the day our second record came out, because some of us were a little bit worried about how the second one would be like publicly received, so we didn’t want to have any public reception for that record hanging over our heads and impact what we were going to do. So that was stressful, but it was a great way of working because you're not thinking about anything other than what you're doing in that present moment. With this one it does feel like we really kind of hit a stride I guess. I think for the first time we’re not really worried about what people think about it because we're really happy with it.
They may be worried about you, but like you're not worried about the album.
They don't need to worry! I've got other people that can do that.